Your Unit of Reward Will Change

Aaron: There's a question that's driven me all throughout my career: What is soft human capital? And the best answer I have is that it's the skills that make us effective at living well or skills that enable us to be agents in our own lives. We can even name different aspects of it, like communication, negotiation, grit, stick-to-it-iveness, but we can't really say a lot about how these things are actually taught. And AI makes this even more urgent because it's developing the capability to do a lot of the technical work that historically provided high-paying jobs. So how do we teach these skills that make humans unique, adaptable , and ultimately just effective at building their own lives? So we invited Dr. Andrew Barnes on to discuss this because he has developed the most effective curriculum on soft skills that I've encountered, and we think that there's just a lot to learn here So today we have Drew Barnes. He has, been a longtime friend of mine. I'm really excited that he can be here. He is a professor at the University of North Florida in construction management, and we wanted him here today because he has, a lot of interesting approaches, very helpful ways of thinking about developing people's soft skills. And like I said, he's been a longtime friend, a great part of my life, and I'm really, really grateful he can be here. And I guess I'll just turn it over to you, Drew, to introduce a little bit about your background, sort of how you ended up where you are.

Andrew Barnes: Sure. Thank you. And, uh, thank you both for this opportunity. right now I'm a assistant professor at the University of North Florida in Construction Management.

Aaron: It's

Andrew Barnes: best job on the planet. I, I've never had a day where I thought "Ugh, not this." You know? It's, it's always been like, "All right. Let's go do it." I've... I'm one of those people, one of those fortunate people that have to catch myself at, you know, 6:31 on a S- on a Friday, you know, afternoon saying, "Oh, wait, I gotta get the weekend started," you know? So, uh, well, how did I get there? Uh, it started out with my mom. Uh, I was a lazy teenager and, uh, I was 15 or 16, and, um, and she knew somebody at church whose husband owned a framing company, and said, "We gotta get my son off the couch. Is there any way that your husband could use a lumber gopher?" And, uh, and mom set me up with my first construction job. I was getting paid $6 an hour to carry lumber for a framing crew for a, for a man named James. He had two giant dragon tattoos on his chest, and it was me, 16-year-old me, with mostly ex-convicts on the framing crew, and that was a really, uh, interesting introduction into the world of construction.

Aaron: It's pretty eye-opening, maybe.

Andrew Barnes: uh, it was eye-opening, it was, uh, it was really, really important because it wasn't like I was doing a lot of the construction itself. I think I got to use the nail gun once or twice,

Aaron: but

Andrew Barnes: it gave me a sense of pride. I remember going back to school as a senior in high school ready to tell everybody that I had worked construction that summer, and that felt really good. that was a feeling that kind of remained with me as I, got into college. And at first when I was in college, I thought, "I'm gonna be a doctor," because when you go to college, there's only four things you can do. You can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer, you can be a teacher, or you can be an engineer, and so I thought, "I'll be a doctor." And after a few, semesters of that, I hated every second of it. It was just like I didn't like my teachers, I didn't like my peers, I didn't like the textbooks, I didn't like what I was learning. I was scared of all the student loans for medical school. I was kind of miserable. And so, um, I knew I needed to make adjustment, and so, uh, looked around and found a few degrees and called up dear old dad and said, "Hey, Dad, I've got a few ideas." And he said, "Construction management is something that sounds like a really viable, career opportunity." And so took a few courses, the university experience

Aaron: changed

Andrew Barnes: once I found the right degree that I needed to be in. the construction management, just to give you a little bit more insight into that, when I was a biology major getting ready for medical school, peers wouldn't share, notes. It was hard to get into a study group. It was competitive. and then I got over to construction management, we were a team. It was really cool, and it was, um,uh, almost expected that we work together and help each other and share notes and, and get together, and I made the best friends, that I still maintain, today. Uh, we sat together. We went on student club trips to Reno, Nevada together to compete. We did all sorts of really neat things, and I, I found my home in construction management. after that, found a job in Raleigh, North Carolina, with a company called Dan Ryan Builders. I was a superintendent for a summer. They identified me as somebody who would be a good fit for the office. I went and became a purchasing agent, which is the person who buys, labor and materials to send to the job site for the production crew to build houses out of, and that's what we built, homes. mostly townhomes. We started building more single-family homes as the years went by. the interesting transition from working as a purchasing agent and a senior purchasing agent was I had always thought that I would learn how to become, how to build homes for somebody else, learn off of their dime, and then eventually set out on my own and become a and build my own homes, and I had a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit, or I thought I did. But I realized as I was building these homes and building budgets and doing takeoffs and estimates, that I was very risk-averse. I mean, for instance, we were building a home one time. It was, supposed to be a basement home. It was in North Carolina. And they found a, a, subterranean um, about the size of a shed right where a basement needed to be, and they had to blast it out, and we made no money on that home. And I remember thinking, "Okay, if this was my first home that I was building on my own, it would ruin me." Like, if I was, you know, if that was my first project. And so I realized how risk-averse I was. Uh, concurrently at that time I had been asked by the senior leadership team at Dan Ryan Builders to do some training. Uh, I had already been doing some training in the purchasing department, and they wanted me to extend out and start training other staff in other departments, in sales, in permitting, in, in, uh, production. And so essentially everybody who got hired into the, the division, uh, had to take my training program about how to be a production home builder. And we called it Dan Ryanization, where we Dan Ryanized people into our processes, into the way that home building went. And I turned out to be somebody that was really interested in doing that well, and so they let me do it. They got word up to corporate that I had built some training materials, um, for, uh, my division. They were sent up to headquarters, and they said, "You know what? This kid needs to be the one doing this for the company," for the seven divisions from Pittsburgh down to, uh, South Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, for that market. And so I left purchasing in Raleigh, North Carolina, and became the, uh, the corporate instructional designer. And after a little bit of doing that, I realized, you know what? This is just something I need to do full-time. Like I was, I was... Well, I was doing it full-time, but I need to do this at scale in a university environment. And so I told my boss, uh,

Aaron: Yeah,

Andrew Barnes: " I am headed to Virginia Tech. I've been accepted. I'm gonna go get a degree so I can be a teacher." And, here I am teaching away, and this is exactly where I belong.

Aaron: Like I, I just love that, that arc mainly because, you can see how it evolves by your expertise and doing a good job at where you're at, and then people recognizing that and being able to shift you and giving you the opportunity to actually go into the things that, that you're really good at contributing with.

Andrew Barnes: You hit it on the head

Aaron: w-

Andrew Barnes: right there. Like what you just said, people giving you the opportunity. I recall one time I was sitting with my division president, his name was Edwin, and, I was kind of keeping it a secret that I wanted to go to graduate school. I had a family at the time. I still have a family, my wife Jessica, and we had Naomi. And, I remember thinking, "Okay, it's eight months before I go to graduate school. What if..." You know, construction's very cyclical. "What if there's a downturn in the economy, they have to let people go?" I would be one of the first ones out because they'd already know I was leaving. So I thought, "You know what? I'm just gonna keep this, you know, between me and Jessica and Virginia Tech." But then my division president came to me and said, "Hey, we have an opportunity. We wanna send you somewhere else and to do something else." And I thought, "Uh, Actually, I can't do that other thing. I'm be going to Virginia Tech." and he said, "Great. How long do I have with you?" I said, "You have about eight months." He said, "We are going to make the most use out of you, and if there's anything you need so we can get you to that place, you let us know. Do a good job for us here, and we'll make sure that we, uh, we send you on your way well." uh, I was blown away at how willing he was to just support me, with whatever trajectory I had.

Aaron: I feel like that's, that's great mentorship too, is that you could rely on them actually looking out for what you needed and your trajectory in your own life. w-what I like about this story also is the Dan Ryanization, the organization recognizing that they wanted everybody to be on board with, the culture and the education of, how they go about approaching things, how they deal with the different problems. both of those things reflect real highly on the organization that you were working for, I would say. I don't know a whole lot more about Dan Ryan Builders, but I think, that reflects very well. a-and not all of us are actually that fortunate to be either in careers or in places where you have mentors willing to move you into places that are going to help you build up. I've noticed a lot of this also at West Point. the best ones really take a special interest in helping people develop their futures as well, not just at West Point, but beyond West Point, because, their time there is usually temporary.

Spencer: Drew, you said you were given a option, but you really created options. you're a large part of the, the options that came in front of you. But then once you have this wealth of options there, what's so unique about it to me is that you have to play a card. And you think you could sit in the silence, in the darkness and let it, let it play out until this other option comes in front of you and the big boss says, "Hey, I want you to put you on this." But then you gotta be up front. I'm, I was just wondering about that, 'cause that's such a big career decision. And, you know everybody always says don't live with any regrets, but I can tell you this, I, I've been very lucky to have a lot of options and I've always wondered like, what if I'd have went that route? What if I'd have went this route, So I wanna know what you were thinking as you and your wife were thinking about this, because

Aaron: with

Spencer: a family, a growing family, surely the other one would've maybe been more, um, financially secure, right? So what are you thinking about? Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: Yeah. no question. I actually know-- I still talk to the, office mate who after I turned down the opportunity, my office mate was offered the opportunity, and he's still in it. And I know what he gets paid, and I know what I get paid.

Spencer: Hmm.

Andrew Barnes: in the industry, you can make so much money. Construction's incredibly lucrative. but I've also heard it said that money can cost too much, and that was true for me. I remember what the driving force behind, one of the driving forces behind my decision to leave industry and go academic, was my kids. I was teaching an early morning seminary class,uh, at the time, and so I would leave my house a little after 5:00 in the morning, and then I'd get home between 6:00 and 6:30 often. And when I had my two or three-year-old at home, I think Naomi just thought I was mom's friend that came over in the evening to hang out, 'cause she just didn't know me very well. And I thought, "This ki- this isn't right. I gotta do this differently. I'm interested in being...

Aaron: with

Andrew Barnes: one life I get, I wanna be a really present dad." and so it was a family decision. And, with Jess and I,

Aaron: one

Andrew Barnes: of the things I tell my students is, this was true for Jessica and I as well, but one of the things I tell my students is your unit of reward will change. At first, when we got out of college, it was the dollar. That was our unit of reward. We needed dollars. But once we got to a threshold and we had enough dollars, my unit of reward started to shift toward minutes. How do I get more minutes? and so that to a lot of late night kitchen conversations in which I would come home and I'd say, "Hey, Jess, what do we wanna do in five years? Where do we see ourselves?" And, that way I, I was ready When Edwin came along and said, "Hey, we have a plan for you," I already had a plan for myself,

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: and I thought that was really important that I could sort of advocate for what Jess and I wanted out of our life. And, uh, And was a really good thing that we had, prepared for that conversation before I even knew it was gonna happen. you don't know when a boss is just gonna walk into your office and say, "Hey, come with me. I, I got something I wanna talk to you about." And if you don't have a plan, if you're unprepared for that, then you're gonna into a plan designed by corporate America, and corporate America can be awesome in so many ways, and it can also be soul-stealing. and so you gotta be really thoughtful, and you gotta make sure you have your own plan, and, and that way, you can make the best decision. But sure, Spencer, I've thought often about the counterfactual. Let's say I

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: in the industry, where would I be? And I often sometimes, like looking at an old girlfriend on Facebook or something, you go back and look at Dan Ryan, you look at the organizational chart,

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: these senior VPs or whatever, and you're like,

Aaron: I

Andrew Barnes: trained that guy," you

Spencer: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: So...

Spencer: it's like Garth Brooks' old song, Sometimes I Thank God for Unanswered Prayers, you really don't know, but that, that, that's so hard, and I think as a young person, what you did and what I think is the right... Just that's why I th- now I can absolutely see why you and Aaron are such close friends, but, you understood, you intentionally and deliberately, with Jess, looked in the mirror. And, I love What-- you just said, man. Your unit of reward will change. I always talk about the currency of commitment, and we all have free will. We can allocate our, our scarce resources where we think it's most valuable. And, know that your kitchen table is the most important thing to you, like what was happening there, that frees you up. that provides you

Aaron: and

Spencer: Jess a, a shared common outlook that provides you certainty elsewhere, and people like that, what I had not put together, because I've been around the construction management folks, I got family, that have been in this industry for a long time, is the profession-like nature of what you were explaining in that you found some teammates. It wasn't, "I'm going to law school. I'm gonna get my degree," and, or, "I'm, I'm gonna get my certificate. I'm becoming medical doctor." it was a team, and that's very attractive, and that's something I think I've overlooked, for a long time. Anywhere where your reputation matters and you're trying to pay it forward, you're investing in somebody who looks like you when you were 18 or 20 or 25, like it feels, in my experience in just what you just said, that, uh, there's a good teamwork in construction management. There's a profession base in there. Even your story of your mentor who, said, "Man, great. You need to go to Virginia Tech. Let's, let's see what we can do the most of that," that's awesome. I had never put that together, Drew. Thank you for giving me that. Are there other things in the profession that you guys help each other

Andrew Barnes: So when I was a purchasing agent, we called it the bullpen. It was me and my buddy Taylor and my buddy, Patrick, And then there was the rotator, the purchasing agent that was just there for six months to learn the office, and then he'd head back out to the field. And if any of us were overwhelmed with work, we all had our division of labor, we had our different assignments that we had to do. And for instance, if one of us had too many variant purchase orders that need to be processed, it's just if there's a change in the field and we have to essentially work it into the budget and get approval for it.

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: if one of us had to do that and we knew that we'd be there till 7:00, we

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: We would do a blitz. We'd say,

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: it's blitz time, so everybody stop what you're doing. We're gonna get Patrick out of here with the rest of us, and we're gonna make sure that none of us are here till 7:00. And we did that routinely

Spencer: Yeah. That's awesome That's awesome

Andrew Barnes: it was awesome. and, we all need help occasionally, and it's good to ask, and it's good to give. So...

Spencer: Yeah. As a young lieutenant, I learned that at Fort Bragg. If you had good ideas in your platoon and you didn't spread them, it was the kiss of death. you needed to tell your good ideas to the other platoons, like we're one big team. you don't see that e- everywhere. That's, that's awesome. Yeah

Aaron: the other part of this sort of the underlying principle, what's fascinating is that it doesn't matter, what profession you're in or what you're doing. the issue of understanding what your trade-offs are appears everywhere in your life, and, and your time with your family, is the trade-off for having that bigger paycheck. some professions, I suppose maybe you get both, but I don't know of many. your trajectory into academia, may have been different than those that you're currently working with.

Andrew Barnes: So why don't you talk a little bit about how that experience has shaped a little bit more your, your curriculum and the things you teach to your studentsSure. so when I was in the industry and doing corporate training, I could focus on

Aaron: hard

Andrew Barnes: technical skills we were all in the same company. I knew what software we were using. I knew what product we were building. I knew, like very specifically what we needed to be training toward Now that I'm in academia, it's hard to train for hard technical skills, because I have no idea where my students are gonna go next. I've got students who are gonna go do, commercial pre-construction. They're gonna be a part of an estimating team that are gonna be doing, I don't know, here in Jacksonville, the renovation on the new Jaguar Stadium or, or something like that. Or I have students that are gonna be doing marine construction, floating docks.

Aaron: I've

Andrew Barnes: got students who are gonna go build roads, other students who are gonna build townhomes. And so for me to try to teach hard technical skills at any given classroom is probably gonna irrelevant to most of them. And so, what I've found also is that with these hard technical skills... And when I say hard technical skills, I mean project management, scheduling, cost in estimating, budgeting, things like that, you know, the softwares. There's some universal hard skills that need to be taught in construction management. Don't get me wrong, you know, every construction company is gonna use software, but I don't know if it's going to be Procore or BuildPro or some proprietary software that they're gonna use. I don't know what field they're gonna go into, but they need to know how to do certain, hard skills. what I realized when I got to academia was that there is a severe dearth in soft skill development in our undergraduate students. technology

Aaron: has

Andrew Barnes: so robust and so intuitive, I can teach my mom how to use, Bluebeam or Tekla or PlanSwift. Any of these softwares, she can jump on YouTube, she can figure out how it's done, and she can, she can learn how to do it. I've even said that if I had to pick a substitute, if I was sick or something and couldn't make it to class one day, who would I pick to be a substitute for one of my classes? It'd be my wife because she, because she's been s- she spent so much time talking, you know, about construction with me, about coursework, she's actually a, a faculty member at UNF now too. she teaches some courses over there too. she knows this stuff, and it's often because the hard skills or the, the technical, uh, TDM of construction is so accessible. It's easy to find. I'm gonna be doing a bathroom renovation this summer. I have never done tile work in my life, but I've watched about three hours of tile work in the last few days, and I'm gonna give it a, a g- try. Maybe I'm gonna be proved wrong, but, But I think it's something I can do. So the technical side of construction, technology has done an amazing job to help solve that problem. Less so with soft skills, with communication, with teamwork, with negotiation, critical thinking, planning, leadership, all these different soft skills.

Aaron: These

Andrew Barnes: are things that when I left the industry and got into academia I found that these were not just lacking, but severely lacking and, and the industry's noticed it as well.

Aaron: so I think that even within the, the disciplines I've been in, uh, I think the soft skill curriculum is something that is gonna have to develop even more. And a lot of this, of course, is coming from the development of AI And how effective it's become at managing a lot of the technical things. And that's not to say, as you said, that the technical skills and the hard skills are important to understand. I wouldn't be comfortable relying on AI to completely write and conduct, an academic paper in economics. but certainly learning how to, function and operate, how to help other people succeed, how to understand why it is that you're not succeeding in certain areas of your life, those soft skills are, are becoming increasingly important. And in fact, you can see this in the data. I've spent a lot of time actually researching how, higher education is shifting. You know, there's sort of a convergence of the kinds of jobs people go into regardless of their major, because again, the technology, bleeds the lines between these different,majors.

Andrew Barnes: Yes, yes. I-- And I actually didn't answer your question previously. I, uh, part of it. I, I wanna talk about soft skills some more and exactly what you just said with these bleeding the lines and de-siloing ourselves. you asked about why I am different, a lot of the faculty in, in universities, and it's partially because construction is an emerging academic field. There's no Nobel Prize in construction management, right? Construction actually began as a formal academic discipline after the Second World War. before that, it was all Engineers , engineers the ones that handled construction. So you had the designers of construction services or products, you know, buildings, roads, all those sorts of things that were also implementing. So they were doing the operations as well, and there was a disconnect, and that was noticed. Especially as technology and as the world became more sophisticated, there was a group that needed to break off from the design side and focus exclusively on the production side. I really like the history of this, but I know I might be a little weird in that way. But, um, most of our prof- professors construction management are borrowed engineering still today And so the, the investments from engineers into construction management, I deeply appreciate. We wouldn't exist without engineers, I think it's time for us to grow beyond engineering professors and move more toward having construction managers as professors. often when you hear about construction managers, Well, what do you hear? When you hear construction management, you hear construction. That's the word you hear. In your head, you picture tool belt, hard hat, handlebar mustaches, right? That sort of thing. actually don't hear that word as loudly as I hear management. It's the management of construction firms. It's a business degree. uh, I tell my students they are paid from the neck up. If they have caulk under their fingernails or if they're too sweaty and dirty at the end of the day, they're doing their job wrong.

Aaron: They

Andrew Barnes: are supposed to be the neuro center for the construction operation. and so we are the, ones that take an owner's request to build whatever the owner wants, a house, road, a factory, or whatever, and then hire out the subcontractors to actually perform the work of building. And so we're the facilitators of that project. and so we need more individuals from there that have that experience to come to academia and to teach so that we can quickly recognize what they need, getting back into soft and hard skills. Because I had spent so much time at Dan Ryan Builders, I spent years in the industry,

Aaron: not

Andrew Barnes: engineering, by the way, not just like the industry, like too broad, right? But actual management of construction companies. I

Aaron: was

Andrew Barnes: able to step into the classroom and say, we need to do all this math. It doesn't matter if you can calculate the forces acting on a truss. That's not important, right? You're never gonna do that in the industry. Instead, what we need to focus on are, yes, some of these hard technical skills. I don't know what those are going to be because I don't know, know what jobs you're gonna take, but do know there's some universal hard skills that you can acquire and also some universal soft skills." and soft skills, there's some, there's some sensitivity around that word, soft skills. actually at a conference at Cal Poly two weeks ago giving a presentation on soft skills, uh, one of the members of the audience raised his hand and said, "Oh man, I would get chewed out if I said soft skills." He said, "It's interpersonal skills is what I've heard." And I've heard interpersonal, I've heard essential skills, universal skills, core skills, transferable skills, power skills.

Aaron: Well, I mean, you know, what's funny about this is the history of the term. Do you know who coined the phrase originally?

Andrew Barnes: don't. Uh-uh.

Aaron: It was the Army.

Andrew Barnes: The Army

Aaron: The Army way back. They, they coined the term, and they had the same debate. They're like, "Oh man, we can't call these soft skills." but along those lines, the Army itself, there's a lot of interest in trying to understand what those soft skills are. And so I, I did wanna ask you that, and I think that's where you are headed here, is what are the soft skills that, that maybe lack from the curriculum that people don't just pick up as they go through the, education system?

Andrew Barnes: Yeah, sure. I actually got AI to write a definition for me for the research conference. I got them to make pictures for me, too. So some of the construction management students in my presentation have seven fingers on one hand. you want hard skills and soft skills or just soft skills?

Aaron: Why don't we just start with the soft skills? if you need some sort of contrasting, hard skills are great too. But yeah, let's hear your take on the soft skills.

Andrew Barnes: Okay

Spencer: I like the contrast, yeah.

Andrew Barnes: do-- I'll,

Spencer: Tell me what it is by telling me what it's not. It always works.

Andrew Barnes: Okay. So hard in construction management are the core technical competencies that college or university students need to, to do to perform their job, right? And so some examples for construction management are purchasing, budgeting, estimating, quality control, safety, logistics, scheduling. Those are hard skills, now soft skills in a construction management context are interpersonal skills that, for construction management academia is that university students need to help manage their construction companies. And

Aaron: so,

Andrew Barnes: examples of those, communication. Communication is the most important skill that a person can have in life. I took from, Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and I agree with that. It's true. teamwork, leadership, negotiation, integrity. Conflict resolution is a really important one. Resilience, decisiveness. A good decision today is better than a great decision tomorrow, that sort of thing. Empathy, creativity, reliability. I tell students, if you want to impress the person you're interviewing with, when you find yourself in an interview, just say very clearly, "I am a reliable person." Don't give them some story. Just say, "You give me something to do, I'm gonna do it. I'm reliable." And then professionalism. And so these are some of the soft skills that I've noticed students are missing. When got into the classroom, after, 10 years of industry and, graduate school and stepped back and looked at these 19 and 20-year-old, predominantly boys that are in my classroom, construction management's about 90/10 male to female, and the classroom reflects that. I realized that, if I was doing my job to prepare the future construction workforce, I needed to make sure I focused on, on soft skills.

Aaron: that was confirmed. We have an industry advisory council, a-- an incredible, very active industry advisory council at the University of North Florida where 40 of us that meet once a month to discuss curriculum to make sure we're teaching the classroom is going to serve the industry of Jacksonville. And I would just kind of, you know, be leaning up against the wall talking to some of them and say, "So what are you noticing? What are you... if there's one thing you could get out of students, the ones you are hiring, what would it be?" and always say soft skills. they say, "Boy, I need somebody that will talk.

Andrew Barnes: I need somebody that can communicate in, in speech and writing." They'll say, "I really need somebody that can own a project, like really get out there. I give him a task to do, he gets his arms around it, and I don't have to come back and check. if he says he's gonna do it, I believe him and I, and I forget about it." and so I thought, "All right. I need to reflect what the industry needs in my classroom. I'm gonna make sure that they get what they're here for."

Aaron: what's fun about this too is, when economists talk about soft skills, they usually define it in terms of, a transferability, so skills that you can use across domains. but that's still super, nebulous. It's a little, it's a little ambiguous exactly what that means. And, every time I've asked people what soft skills are... In fact, I was on this, committee with the National Academy of Sciences. We were trying to talk about, write about how do you develop the skills that are necessary within the army. And I would talk about soft skills, and then the psychologists got really mad at me. They're like, "I don't know what you're talking about." I'm like, "Sure, I'm talking about everything that's, you know, transferable across domains." They're like, "That doesn't mean anything." they were kind of right in a way. And whenever you ask people what are soft skills, the best answers are usually a good solid list of these types of things, interpersonal skills, communication. But I think what-- In the same way that the leadership curriculum, that I've studied, that we've tried to put together or what is classically taught, it's going to be a set of sort of like a list that is different depending on who you're talking to. And so what's hard is having some underlying idea of what it is that you're trying to build in people. And so having, having a good list is very important. you know, the, the main core competencies that you want people to have. But one of the things that we're trying to wrap our hands around, is how do we, how do we boil this down to a consistent set of ideas and skills that we want people to develop?

Andrew Barnes: Yeah, there's there's a, a conversation going on, can soft skill- skills be taught, right?

Aaron: Is

Andrew Barnes: possible? I will say yes, absolutely, soft skills can be taught. Now the real question in my mind is can it be taught at scale? Can we systematically teach soft skills? How do we do that? I don't know the answer to that. I have a few theories, but, that's really hard. How do you teach motivation? How do you teach reliability? Like, That's not something that you can just say, "Here, sit down in front of this software and click these buttons," and then make the software do whatever, you know, send it commands and make it do it.

Aaron: take a, take a test on reliability

Andrew Barnes: Yeah, Now, there are-- one of the research projects that I have upcoming is called a situational judgment test. They do that in the medical field, in which you have, individuals, industry professionals. in medical-medicine, you're gonna have doctors that will create these real-life situations. You know, seasoned experts in the field create these situations, and give to somebody, who's learning to try to train them, how would you respond to a certain situation? And we can do that in construction too. In any applied field, you can say, "All right, you have a subcontractor that is very, very mad, right?

Aaron: And

Andrew Barnes: he's coming at you, and you know he's going to ask for, uh, a rate increase. he hasn't had a... You know, this is the framer, and he, he charges by the square foot, and he hasn't had an increase in six months, and you said you would." Um, anyway, so how would you navigate that situ-out-- situation without creating an enemy, And you can them certain and there's an almost an algorithm to it where they can work through what they would do step by step. And so there are some ways to do it. I, feel that the best way to do it, it has to be modeled. And that's actually one of my, my own personal teaching goals is to be a role model to students. That I can step into the classroom and they can say... 'Cause I have these for myself. My old manager at DRB, um, at Dan Ryan Builders, his name was Tad, my direct supervisor, and whenever I'm in a situation that feels really, um, where I feel really stuck, I can think and s-- and always, I can always imagine Tad having a response. Tad was in any situation, he was amazing. I, I don't know how he did it sometimes. I would be in the room with him and an owner or a boss or an inspector or somebody would be mad about something, and I'd say, "I am so glad that Tad's in here, and I have no idea how he's gonna get us out of this, but I know he will." And he always did. And so I always, I had that role model in my head, somebody that can I think-- I can think to. And so with a lot of my construction students, I wanna make sure that when I'm in the classroom with them, I can model the behavior of, you know, somebody who is, uh, somebody who has done a good job to master some of these soft skills. And, and there are so many that I'm lacking on, but there's, you know, there's a few things I'm good at, and hopefully, I can exhibit those well to some of the students, and they can say, "You know what? Professor Barnes, he would find a way to get out of this in the right way. And so I can figure that out too." But it's, uh, it's really hard teaching soft skills, um, if we have the same framework as teaching hard skills. There's-- These are very different, are very different, uh, skill sets, and they need to be taught differently too

Spencer: I've said it numerous times, that we're trying to bring sexy back for, uh, leadership economics. And, you know, Aaron's musically gifted, but he's not Justin Timberlake, right? So,

Aaron: come on.

Spencer: And to me Sexy is, sexy is the soft skills. And I, think you know, our founding

Aaron: philosophers

Spencer: of human interaction, David Hume, Adam Smith, all these folks, were after this same idea of how we get into this human inter- And to me, where you guys started was, like, this theory versus this applied. And then y- what Drew you said was that these, these young students are entering into spots where the applied stuff, the technical s- the hard technical skills, they're gonna, you're gonna have to know how to do those. But it is your gateway to get into the soft skills. The margin of excellence is that you know how to handle that hard situation. And Aaron, I'll just link it back to this, most professions in the world set standards for, their profession, and reputations matter in a profession, and the standards matter in a profession. that's what I don't know enough about in construction management, on how we take care of each other and how we take care of the-- situations, and whether or not we can have the perspective of the other person. That's like what, Drew, what Aaron and I would call is information and motivation. It's kind of the space-time fabric that we're existing in, right? when that framer comes up to you and he knows he needs a pay raise, can you take his perspective? Can you find the, way What Tad would do. 'Cause you've seen Tad do this, and then you said the right thing. And the right thing to me is such a nebulous piece, right? we all say this, the right thing. And when we always say in the Army Aaron, you've heard it a trillion times, but you gotta lead by example. Well, why is that? And what I'm saying, I, what I think we're saying, Drew, in leadership economics in a very theoretical sense, is that ultimately you're setting relative prices within the organization, and the organization is always changing. This job site may be different than this job site. DRB is different than somebody else, but you gotta onboard somebody into DRB. DRB has a culture that has a set of relative prices. Are you aware enough to understand the pricing mechanism and then exist within the pricing mechanism? And what Aaron and I are saying, and we could be totally crazy, Drew Is that this is all an economic conundrum. What we gotta figure out is what are you allocating? How do you allocate this? Where's the scarcity, and how do you deal with the expectations of this interaction with future interactions? Free markets do a very good job of allocating scarce resources, we've proven that. I mean, this planet is better today because, we allow free markets. now there's has to be a set of rules, right? everything we just talked about, which is tremendously informative, I think is driven by creating a win-win for two people that doesn't soil the greater organization and the rules of the game. You know what I mean? That's what the right thing is, but it's defined by, the, the trade-offs you're willing to make, right? you want that, another good framer to show up, you need to meet this guy halfway somehow. You gotta bring hi- you gotta make his W at least a lowercase W, right? and what he's asking is, "How much are you winning, and how much am I winning?" Okay, we both may be winning, but I'm not very happy with how big you're winning and how big I'm winning, right? And it come back to this what is fair kind of question, and this is what I'm, I'm just tied up in now. Like, I'll stop with this. Is there a profession, a professional organization that, certifies within construction management? Is there one out there that sets standards for the profession? Is it a profession?

Andrew Barnes: Construction is so fragmented and local, at least in residential, which is what I did, and conditions change much. Um, are builder societies. I'm part of one here in Jacksonville. I'm a member of the Northeast Florida Builders Association.

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: there's attempts to kind of create, not really standards as much as just like community, where we all kind of understand the, the scarcities that you're talking about specifically, and then understanding, you know what, if I'm gonna succeed as a general contractor, I have to ensure the success of my sub-- my trades, my trade partners, my

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: right? I don't like to say subcontractor, I like to say trade partner. So in order

Spencer: I like that

Andrew Barnes: Yes, and I need to make sure that they're successful and to see them as true partners in this. If I just treat them, like subcontractors, i-if I treat them as disposable, then I'm not gonna have anybody to do my framing, do my plumbing, do my HVAC or electrical whatever it is. And so you have to really make sure that you're serving your customer. Your customer needs a good price. When they drive by the neighborhood, they need to say, "Starting in the low three hundreds," not, "Starting in the high six hundreds." And so we gotta make sure that the prices stay under control, but also make sure that the-- that you have good partners with everybody. Everybody, the owners, the inspectors, your internal teammates, your external teammates, which is your trade partners, and just make sure that everybody is, is treated well. and if they know that you're a fair person, just like lead with example, if they know that you're somebody who is treating them like a team member and that you're a fair person and that you're not trying to just get that boat with four, four engines on the back, you know, off of their dime, they're gonna respect that and they're gonna understand and believe you when you say, "The best we can do is this price,"

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: what we can do, and I hope you're gonna stay with us and, no sweat if you have to go hunting for other work, go do that, but I hope you come back anytime."

Spencer: Yeah. And that, I, I swear, man, that reputation thing is so important to me. In the Army it's, it's the same. 82nd Airborne Division has a certain culture, right? The Ranger Regiment has a culture. 1st Infantry Division, 1st Armored Division, But the one thing that is true is your reputation's gonna follow you. It's gonna follow you. It is your resume, your reputation's your resume in this. it's so important, right?

Andrew Barnes: market, like construction is small and incestuous, It's market-based, and so if you screw somebody it is going to spread around and that will follow you forever. So if you have a reputation for, for being fair and empathetic and just like a reasonable person, that will also follow you around and people are gonna wanna work with you. when I was working as an intern in, Salt Lake City, there was one company in particular, I don't wanna use the name of the company, but let's call it Big Bob's Builder. They had the Bigs-

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: Builder. factor, That if there was a bid, whatever the final price was, they multiplied it by 1.2 because working with them was a chore, you

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: And they didn't know and they didn't trust, what would happen.

Spencer: Yeah. I think, the reputation is, in a sense, the credibility of currency. And when I say your currency, it could be you as a person, it could be your organization, could be whatever. But ultimately, these transactions become transformational. I teach some leadership courses as well,

Andrew Barnes: yes

Spencer: a transaction versus transformational, uh, idea, I- it just seems so mystical, like it's in the stars or something, and it bothers me a little bit. and we believe there's actually a mechanism to this.

Aaron: And I

Spencer: the transaction, you have to be good at the hard skills. If you can't transact well, then you're gonna fail. But to make it transformational means I'm executing on faith almost, that I trust in Drew. Drew's gonna show up with this. All the words you said earlier. So yeah, it's not easy. It's very hard. So

Andrew Barnes: That's the exact right word.

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: It is, a matter of trust and faith, yes.

Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. So Aaron, that's a lot of meat on the bone right there, but Drew's doing it, and I totally believe in the soft skills. You know, I, I speak to a lot of golfers. private country clubs, and the golf industry, which is largely hospitality, and their argument is the exact same, soft skills. It's the things that's gonna separate them in the hospitality world. Could be a restaurant, could be whatever. And, as kind of alluded to, in the future, I think it will be the thing that, you know, our comparative advantage as human beings will be that we can do this and AI maybe can't.

Andrew Barnes: Mm-hmm.

Spencer: So Yeah.

Aaron: when Spencer says, that we have these transactions, I think, a lot of people hear that you should always have a relationship that's sort of tit for tat, I give you this, you give me that. And I think what's valuable to understand more is that what we mean is that every relationship has these expectations, and how you meet or exceed those expectations is going to affect, how people interact with you in the future, just like what you're saying. And one of the core parts, I think, of the curriculum that you have, Drew, spends a lot of time talking about negotiation. And I'd like to get your thoughts on how does negotiation provide a solid core skill, as a soft skill for interacting with people?

Andrew Barnes: Sure. That's a great question. I teach a negotiation class. It's actually called Construction Labor Resources. it's a graduate course. it used to be a cross-listed course with undergraduate students too, and I wish it still was, but we got too many graduate students, and they kicked out all the undergraduate students. I decided to make the entire course about negotiation, because that's such a-- Uh, it's a soft skill, but I guess the-- at this point... I actually like the word soft skill. I'm not sure if that's popular or if that's- or something like that, but I don't care. I like it. People know

Spencer: I like

Andrew Barnes: say it, so I'm gonna

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: it.

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: that's uh, I wanted it to be, soft skills focused. when my department chair asked me to teach the course, and still students, when they take the course, They think we're gonna be, like, calculating labor rates, you know? Where they think we're gonna be like, "Oh, how many carpenters, and how many carpenters assistants are we gonna need for this project that's this size and it's this long?" And all that sort of thing. And I'm just like, if you need that, the best place to learn that is in the industry. Here in college, let's learn the things that we need to learn in college, and college, and the things we need to learn in the industry, and the industry." And so I decided to make it on a negotiation, and I based it on two texts. The first one is, William Ury is the principal author, Getting to Yes. fantastic book. It's a seminal work. I think it was written in 1981, and it changed forever the conversation on negotiation. and the other one is a series of, academic articles, from Harvard Business Review called, Harvard Business Review on Negotiation, and that's an optional text, and some of the students like to go through that. It has a bunch of different articles from different authors. But Getting to Yes, When I explain that to somebody in an elevator, I "This book teaches you how to value the other side of the table, and instead of sitting across from them, you figuratively and possibly even literally,

Aaron: sit

Andrew Barnes: on the same side of the table as the person."

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: Instead of looking at the other person as the problem, that's called positional negotiation. Instead, what you do is you bring them to the other side of the table, or you go and sit on the other side of the table of them and say, "You and me, there's problem over there, and how are we gonna solve it?" And it really makes you and your supposed opponent on the other side of the negotiating table, it partners you together, it couples together to tackle uh, whatever it is that is keeping you from moving the world forward. I, I, have been blown away at how little students know about negotiation. There's almost been a, a Hollywood like corruption of negotiation, where when you think of negotiation, you think you have to put your dukes up and bloody the other person up on the other side. That sort of th- that's the dumb stuff like that, where it's just like, no, that's not how it is. And then I ask students to start negotiating in their lives, I mean, we're already negotiating.When you and your girlfriend, say, "Let's go get dinner. Where are we gonna go?" It becomes this negotiation, right?

Aaron: And

Andrew Barnes: so practice in these personal environments, and that way whenever you get to a professional environment when you have to negotiate- You've already got hundreds, of hours of negotiating just at home and always. I like, Spencer, what you were talking about with your transactional interactions, and I tell students, never again in your entire life have a transactional exchange with somebody. If you are buying a pack of gum at a gas station, do not see that person as just a gum vending machine that's giving you what you want. But really look that person in the eye, show genuine appreciation, uh, empathetically look at the other person, and they're gonna feel that, and it's gonna be a superpower for you. And the people aren't gonna be able to identify what it is about interacting with Spencer or interacting with Aaron or interacting with my student Christian. But when you actually abandon transactional relationships entirely, when you get a- get away from that, and you have a genuine, good human relationship with every single person that you come in contact to, when truly listen, when you truly see the world just for a moment through their eyes, right?

Aaron: Their

Andrew Barnes: feel that, and then they're gonna walk out of your office. And when you take that, when you transfer that into the workplace, and you're talking to either uh, a coworker or a subordinate or a superior or whoever it is, they're gonna say, "Every time I interact with Spencer, or every time I interact with Aaron, I walk out with some energy. I walk out feeling different." And they're not gonna know what it is about your in, uh, your interactions that make it different, but they're gonna feel that. And so my goal with Getting to Yes is for them to have that experience where it's not me versus you. a Democrat. You're wearing a blue shirt. I'm wearing a red shirt. I'm a Republican. You like the Jaguars. I like the whoever. Or any, get rid of all that crap and instead just say, "You know what? There's a lot of alignment between you and I. Let's get rid of the jerseys. Let's see what we agree on, and, uh, and then we definitely have some important disagreements, but let's figure out those two. Let's really cut those into pieces and see where we specifically disagree, and, uh, let's see how we can be useful to each other anyway," right? And there's always compromise, compromise is an art, and you need to be okay with that. sometimes that means disappointing your side a little bit, and that's okay if it means you can get

Aaron: more

Andrew Barnes: in the long term. And often you just have to elongate the timeline and say, "You know what? This feels like a loss, but I know in 14 months when nobody else has a framer except for us, this is gonna be a win." Yep, and so manage those relationships really carefully and really care for all of the relationships. And you have to do that with the person across the counter. You have to do it in your own home, been doing that ever since I started teaching this course. I thought, "You know what? No more transactional relationships." No more like, "Hey, Jess, "Where is my laundry?" and she says the same thing with me. At my house, I do all the dishes, right? That's just my gift to Jessica. And she said, now, "We don't treat each other like housekeepers for each other, but instead there's a lot of gratitude, and the relationship is really strong." and I take that to the classroom with students, You can have a adversarial relationship with students. A lot of professors do, where they see them as the enemy. Anytime they see a student coming, up to them after a class or knock on the door for their office, they feel like, "Oh, no, what's this student gonna do?" Right? But instead, if that's your feeling, then we're doing something wrong, and you to negotiate a little bit differently those relationships. Getting to Yes is a great book. I recommend it to everybody to not just read it and say, "Oh, that's some great ideas," but to really apply it, and, uh, things will change if you do that.

Aaron: It reminds me a little bit more also about negotiating with your kids. so some negotiators are a bit more reasonable than others. And...

Andrew Barnes: Don't with your kids. I lied. Don't negotiate with them. They need to

Aaron: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: and destroyed.

Aaron: my kids are obsessed with negotiation. they seem to be a lot better at it than me. but I guess w-what's hard is that sometimes those negotiations or those interactions, are certainly a bit more adversarial on the other side, and I think that there's a bit of an art to knowing how to deal with that, correctly. But th-the thing about this that I really enjoy is that this really comes down to the empathy and genuinely trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes. we hear these phrases all the time, and we talk about empathy all the time, but, the book is a lot more about how do you go about, doing that. And what I also see is that this bleeds into a lot of the other soft skills that we're talking about, is that when you're trying to negotiate in this way with somebody, you're also taking into account the constraints that they're facing, and you're taking into account the information that they may or may not have, and the things that are really driving them in their lives, to accomplish. And so when, when we think about motivating the people that we lead or motivating ourselves even, but especially when we're motivating others, taking that peek into what they want out of life or what they want out of this, interaction with you- Is an important tool for then moving you both towards a goal that, that is at least satisfactory and potentially, you know, a win-win for both of you, if that's possible

Andrew Barnes: talking about The, the person you're negotiating with, you said that you have to, you said that you have to know what their values are or what their stresses are, or, you know, that's kind of what I heard, which means you have to get to know them. You can't just like, your-- whoever you no- negotiate with can't be a stranger if you want it to be successful. You have to, you have to get to know, like not, you don't have to know what, you know, favorite flavor of ice cream they have That's not important. But if I'm negotiating with, you know, for instance, a, um, a trust manufacturer, need to know what their constraints are. I need to know what their stresses are. I need to know what their, um, what their, uh, what they're worried about, you know, and I need to know their business well enough, and also possibly the human. I need to know, like, what's going on in the background too, um, in order to be able to build that relationship so we can have a successful negotiation. Otherwise, it does become transactional. they're just a humanoid, you know, that's in my way, then, uh, it will be transactional, and it won't go well because they're not a humanoid, and they don't like being treated that way either. And so, uh, I really like what you said about, um, about building a relationship so that you can be successful. Otherwise, I don't think it'll work

Spencer: Drew, you said, um, earlier money can cost too much. you got to have enough, whatever that is, 'cause everybody's got a different enough. But I'm wondering, in terms of inspiring, like at the lowest level in construction management, I'm talking about the hourly wage employee whose labor force. your graduates, do they understand how to interact down to that level with some soft skills, like find that motivation?

Andrew Barnes: I tell students that, well, first of all, money can cost too much, but I also tell students that money is the most important thing in the business. you reward people with money. So if somebody's doing something well, it is good to, have words of affirmation and to give them plaques and to do things like that, give them promotions, but it shouldn't be an empty or a dry promotion. Money is how you reward people, and they need to be paid for doing a good job, and that's true at all levels, high and low. with kind of the lower tier of the construction management workforce, it's really good for them to see a path upward. So if their unit of reward is still money, and some people never Some people are never satiated with money. Like what's happened with Jessica and I, where our unit of reward shifted from dollars to minutes, that doesn't happen for everybody. Some people constantly get that reward through dollars. There's Nothing wrong with that. That's your unit of reward. I think

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: there's responsibilities and duties with money. I think once you get sufficient that you have a duty to humanity, that you voluntarily need to find a good way to spend that and share that. I teach students that there are three things you do with money: you spend sh- you save it, and you share it. and our industry and construction is not indifferent about you being a generous person, personally and as a company. Dan Ryan Builders, they would, partner with Habitat for Humanity and with, with the Ronald McDonald House and with a number of other good organizations. And, I tell students that materialism is a spiritual disease they need to avoid. so if your unit of reward stays money, then you need to find a way for that not to ruin you. So keep it. That's a good thing, that you wanna keep on building and providing. Dan Ryan, the person who started our company, he built his first house in 1990. He's a decamillionaire. He's somebody who, I admire deeply. He drives a Honda Accord and lives in a town home. If he were to go to a production outing, if he were to be standing with all the builders, right? You would not be able to pick him out. He's not one of the individuals that drives a 7 Series BMW and has a $300 haircut and, you know, $400 seal skin shoes. He was just a guy that would have a stain from Chick-fil-A on his shirt, and he was-- there's nothing pretentious about him, and I really admired that about him. But

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: so driven. He wanted to build, he wanted to grow, he wanted to be profitable, and that was awesome, and it gave me a job after college.

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: only grateful for the individuals that keep on, wanting to grow and wanting to measure that with the unit of a dollar.

Spencer: Yeah. That...

Andrew Barnes: I think it's really important to make sure that the guy who's sitting on the floor putting together a house has an interaction, a

Aaron: close

Andrew Barnes: interaction with, uh, Dan Ryan, with

Spencer: Mm-hmm. the

Andrew Barnes: guys at the

Aaron: top

Andrew Barnes: because if you to Dan Ryan for a

Spencer: minutes

Andrew Barnes: you'll realize this is not some super human We're same species. And so to take that guy who, you know, may or may not have finished high school, and to, to show him Dan path toward owning a great company, or me-- I tell students all the time, I say, "We are not some elite, species of superhuman, that we're not like an elite cadre of geniuses in academia." I failed two courses in college. Fs. I got two Fs, and still they let me be a teacher. And so if you wanna be a professor, if you wanna get a PhD, it's just a choice you make. If you wanna own a company, it's a choice you make And then if you make sure that the guy who's sitting on the floor for $15 an hour putting, baseboard in, if he can have some interface with senior management or with executive management, I that is a great way for them to say, "Yeah, I can grow, too. I can create a career path for myself. I can be that guy." So Dan, you know, he built his first house in 1990. He painted it himself. And for him to tell that story to somebody like me, and when I first took my job at Dan Ryan, I made $38,000 a year. And I like telling that story my undergraduate students because the, the average median pay for a graduate from the University of North Florida right now is $75,000, right? That's before profit sharing, that's before bonuses. and between 2013 and 2026, just 13 years, right? it's pretty much doubled what they're gonna get paid. And once you add all that stuff in, the bonuses, profit sharing, all that sort of thing, they're gonna be all making, you know, 22-year-olds making $100,000 a year. And so

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: letting them see that path from the high school lumber gopher all the way to Dan Ryan is a really important vision that they need to have for themselves.

Spencer: Yeah. what I, what's curious about it for me, I was thinking, what are the other things, those intrinsic award, rewards that you, obviously you and Jess have gotten to, but like other... How do you get other people there? And the perspective, the negotiations we were just talking about, is the competition for labor, the markets, and they're all very different. could it be that path forward is what you mentioned, a possible security for their own futures that reaches into their kitchen table decisions at their own house, you know? That young laborer and his family or her family, and then the leadership presence. there are things that can make a team better. Like I wanna a part of DRB because in the Army, we all get paid the same. You have a rank, it's a public pay scale. You may get jump pay 'cause you jump out of an airplane, that's a little bit more money. But I think most people join, and this, and it's a self-selection into this service to, I wanna be on a great team. And I still believe most people wanna be on a great team. Like you said, I wanna Friday night at 6:31 PM go, "Holy smokes, I gotta get my weekend started," you know? I want you to enjoy to come to work. I think that soft skills that you're talking about, could differentiate these future students as companies in that they create that environment where I wanna be a part of that, that culture. So I just don't know how to do it well. I know that money matters, but not everybody's chasing that fourth engine on the boat, man. I, I, you know, I love when you referenced that, that fourth 450 on the back of that cigarette boat, you know? Like, so anyway, yeah, I, I think it all ties in, andI I was wondering like the biggest challenge on the competition for labor in, in this market, that teams still matter. People, people will work for teams that matter,

Andrew Barnes: you don't know what everybody values Like my wife right now minutes if my wife wanted to go make double and if I wanted to go make double we know how to do that right We have the way And managers, if they want to avoid turnover if they want to compete for labor they have to just like Aaron was talking about you have to get to know people You have to know what drives them what their hopes are what their worries are what stresses them out and that way if you say You know what I got this I got this 30-year-old

Aaron: young

Andrew Barnes: who's been working for me and she's awesome and I don't wanna lose her I need to get to know her because if I just keep on throwing bonuses at her she might actually be interested in saying You know what I wanna start a family in the next few months What she might value way more than a bonus She might get that bonus and just throw it in the in the back with the rest of the bonuses and not really think of it But what she might really value is saying hey would working from home two days a week would that make a difference to you

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: could be her unit of reward right?

Spencer: right Right.

Andrew Barnes: "You've been in the permitting department for about three years." We knew that our-- We knew that the, uh, the timer on a, on a permitting coordinator was about two hour, or two year, two to three years is how long they would last before they started to search for something different because that's a really hard job And so to know that like okay after about two years we need to say Hey uh Stephanie what's next for you girl we

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: you get to that next thing and you're awesome We want to keep you with us So what would you And it could be a status change a title change something like that So just getting to know and you can't do this at scale You have to let local leadership drive this Find the individuals who are willing to sit down next to somebody and say Hey what are your what are your goals And then to have enough trust in the organization where somebody like me says You know what Edwin I'm actually gonna be going to graduate school

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: to know that he wouldn't say like Well you get the hell out of here You know What are what are you doing here You don't We don't need two weeks You just go right Instead he was like Well how long do we have with you Because I wanna make sure this is worthwhile for both of us And

Aaron: so

Andrew Barnes: don't think there's a way to do that from the C-suite at corporate I think this has to be done at the managerial the s- the lower managerial level to say Hey you're doing a good thr- job for us what kind of repayment are you expecting

Spencer: yeah. taught at West Point for a good while, me and Aaron, obviously. so those classrooms are a little bit different. But I've been teaching recently, down here in South Louisiana, a few universities, and when I go into a classroom now, it's like dead silence, and everybody's looking at their phones. What it used to be when you go in a classroom, it was, like, loud, and you had like, "Hey, all right, bring it down, bring it down. Let's get started. Let's get started," you know? And I was trying to tell my students, I tell them this in the beginning, "Hey, it would be nice, because I'm telling you, the thing that's gonna separate you from others is that how you interact with other people." These soft skills again, which I love the term too. I'm going with it, soft skills. the technology, one of the costs is that it's pulling them away from interacting and receiving information and then also, sending information, and these are all signals that they have to get better at. D- Do you think that's happening? Are they getting worse at it? And does that make it even more important because of the AI?

Andrew Barnes: No question

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: question I feel the same thing I actually feel my heart rate going up when you talk about that

Aaron: Yeah, same

Andrew Barnes: TikTok brain is real There is no impulse control Our students are exhibiting poor cognition these things right here rectangular syringes pumping the most addictive stuff directly into the brains of our students that the world has ever seen

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: I've had 10 million frustrating little moments where I walk into a classroom and I see it's a morgue and

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: just sitting there staring at their little stupid rectangle getting dumber And I'm like This this can't work Let me tell you a math problem I do for my students I write on the board and I say Look I'm not an engineer so I'm not that good at math okay But I'll do my best And I write two plus two equals four And then I say four times three hundred and sixty-five I have it written out right here in case you think

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: I'm not I'm copy I'm I'm cheating I say four times three hundred sixty-five is one thousand four hundred and sixty One thousand four hundred sixty times seventy-five is one hundred and nine thousand five hundred Divide that by sixty divide that by twenty-four and the number is seventy-six point zero four And so I say What is that two? In the two plus two equals four what does that first two mean What's that represent Have you heard this math this before

Spencer: not, but I'm so intrigued with it because I... Yeah, keep going.

Andrew Barnes: Okay, here we go So that first two represents brushing teeth How much brushing your teeth in the morning What's the second two It's brushing your teeth at night You spend if you live for 75 years a 75-year life that math means that you spend 76.04 days of your life 24-hour days standing in the mirror brushing your teeth And then I say you can see them thinking like Two and a half months of my life I stand in the mirror doing this brushing my teeth Yeah two and a half months of your life that's what you do And then I say How many of you spend more than four minutes a day on social media how many years of your life are you pissing away

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: looking at what some engineer in California is choosing for you to see next And so I am a little bit terrified

Aaron: about

Andrew Barnes: how damaging it can be for students to burn Look I've got a 91-year-old grandfather If he wants to sit on his couch and scroll through social media doom scroll his life away then go for it Papa Like have fun right Looking at Instagram but see a bunch of early 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds, right when they need to not waste a minute right Squander months and years of their life looking at at stupidities on social media or just on the internet in general it's really revolting for me to see I actually don't use social media After I taught my my capstone class for the first time I I needed to live consistently with what I was teaching my students and so I got rid of it all It was actually one of the most courageous things I've done because I came up with all these reasons that I needed social media right I said Well with my kids soccer practice you know the group is on Facebook We need to have that then I said You know what All of this is poison I need to get rid of it and we'll find another way to talk to each other And I got rid of all of it and my life has been nothing but an upgrade since so I have abandoned Instagrams Uh, I think I had TikTok on my phone for about half hour and that felt like bad was like I gotta get rid of this thing This is really stimulating It feels like a drug or something got rid of it all and I replaced it with a Google Doc for writing a story

Aaron: and

Andrew Barnes: I'm like bored at the dentist office I get out this Google Doc and I write this novel and I write a paragraph of it and right now I'm at 181,000 words

Spencer: Oh, wow.

Andrew Barnes: Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is thousand words words, just so

Spencer: Wow.

Andrew Barnes: of a book this is that I'm kind

Spencer: Wow

Andrew Barnes: tinkering with And that wouldn't exist if I was just sitting there looking at other people's lives And our students have no idea what this is costing them They don't They have no clue They're just thinking this is normal right And

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: they go through my class it's I think it'sconstruction managers and all professors in general we have this job this really difficult job of transforming these students to the that companies are gonna wanna hire and pay $100,000 a year to and put them in charge of projects that are $100 million I have students right now that that are on billion-dollar projects

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: they are not lumber gophers They are the individuals that are working in the budgets They're the ones that are coordinating the actual work I had one student bring me his phone and He showed me a helicopter that was lifting and air handling unit onto the top of a building because that was the easiest way They

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: where they

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: and so they just used a helicopter to drop it on top of the building And I was like So who's in charge of that He's like I am I had to call this I had to find this helicopter company that would actually do this I was like What are you doing here in class He's like Oh that's what I was talking to you about I was hoping that I could get out of here I was like Yes Corey go go to the site He's like Good My my stomach is so full of battery acid and blood right now I was just like Yeah I was like We'll catch you up on classwork but get over there And so getting students to transition from being these high schoolers laying in their beds with a bowl of Cheetos and looking at social media into professionals construction management professionals that we entrust with enormous amounts of capital and societal trust I had a professor at BYU who me the construction management will reflect the-- how much you value human life, right? If you are taking shortcuts, if you are being, uh, lazy or unfocused as a construction manager, like, people can get killed doing that, right? And, uh, I show case studies mostly in other countries where construction managers decided to take shortcuts, and it was, uh, it was... You know, I'm thinking right now of the Hyatt walkway collapse, the Kansas City Hyatt walkway collapse in, um- Oh, when was that? I think it was July 17th, 1980, when some construction managers, uh, weren't thoughtful and they did some silly things. And so, uh, and so I wanna make sure that my students are not, um, are-- don't have brain damage from the devices that we're giving them right now. I think s- I think technology can be a real benefit for almost every... I think, I think technology is an amazing force for good for a few people who learn how to use it responsibly. But for the masses that are undisciplined, it can be a horrible stumbling block for them, and they can waste their lives on it

Spencer: And not only are they losing the time now but they're missing out on the training opportunity to be better in interacting with humans So yeah Um you're you're so dead on it Yeah

Andrew Barnes: What I realized too was when I was justifying using social media my transition away from social media had was staged and at first I thought Okay I can just curate it I can make my social media I can make it so it's just cultural leaders and religious leaders interesting thoughtful people that have interesting thoughtful things to say so I got rid of all the cat and baby videos and the embarrassing dancing moms or whatever I just got rid of all just going to follow and I thought, "I'm just gonna follow, you know, academics and industry professionals that are really focused."

Spencer: mm-hmm,

Andrew Barnes: even after I turned off my phone and I was walking down the street or driving my head was still on their lives and on their research and on their work And it's like

Aaron: even

Andrew Barnes: my phone was off my brain was still there

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: so I still felt like I was captured by somebody else's world and I didn't like that It actually

Spencer: Yeah. Yeah

Andrew Barnes: ever since I disposed of all that it's been like wow I, I'm cap- I an original thought right I can actually you know-

Aaron: and you don't have to post it right away?

Andrew Barnes: No I've never made a post in my life

Aaron: Need some of that external validation. I mean, the, the big thing here, again, is about recognizing the trade-off that you're making with your time.

Spencer: Yeah

Aaron: and making that visible to your students, is valuable. When you say you are giving up years of your life, one, 20-minute doom scroll session at a time, you're just giving up the years.

Andrew Barnes: I went a funeral of a student last October His name was Cameron he had got up for work at 5:00 in the morning got into his truck and was driving out to the job site Somebody T-boned him and ran off They never found him I actually just checked a few weeks ago to see if they had found what happened or who did it or whatever I think the individual hit him called the police and ran away And so there I am sitting in Cameron's funeral this 24-year-old student that graduated a few years prior and it was just so sad for me I could get sad now cause I I really deeply care about my students I know their names all of them I want to be a good teacher for them so that I can be a small part of their success as they move forward in their lives But there I was at Cameron's funeral and when I got back to my classroom and I was telling my students about it I said You know what The things I'm gonna teach you I don't want them to be obsolete in 18 months I don't wanna say like your college experience your four years of college education is only good for the first 18 months of your career But I also thought like I wanted to like I'm gonna teach you things that might not be useful for 10 years or maybe even 20 years when you're managing people But I remember thinking like I have no idea if you're gonna get 24 years out of life or 104 years out of life

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: and so I wanna make sure that whatever you do get I wanna make sure that my lessons are useful to you and that the minutes that you do have on planet Earth aren't wasted And so while you're doom scrolling and going through just like the normal things that college students do right Understand that you might have 13 years left on planet Earth it was actually kind of like a little bit sad because I was teaching that classroom in the same classroom that I taught Cameron and his desk was empty and I was like This is almost poetic

Spencer: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Barnes: that one desk over there where he used to sit and I remember he was a great student He would raise his hand and talk all the time So students please I do the math problem with the toothbrush and all that sort of thing and I say Don't waste the minutes You don't know how many you get could come out of the sky and kill you on the way home You get run over by the ice cream truck Who knows So I would say don't burn up time and if you really wanna distinguish yourself at home and in the workplace uh, get rid of some of these some of this social media stuff time that your computer starts to buffer because your software is loading and you just r- reach for your phone to see what's happening on Instagram like don't do that People don't even know they're doing it so decide how much if any of twenties that you wanna spend on this stuff and be really intentional with the way you interface with technology in general

Spencer: I think that's the right word Aaron intentional and deliberate But that starts with scarcity like recognizing you're awake and that you have you have scarce time and you should en engage your productive nature a

Aaron: Drew,

Spencer: good lesson

Aaron: may not know this, but Spencer keeps a running tally of how many weeks he has left in his life.

Andrew Barnes: Does he

Aaron: He does, He informs me occasionally

Spencer: I'm in three digits now man and I can tell you

Andrew Barnes: Is that what it's called? Is that what it's called

Spencer: Yes I got 6,891 days to my 75th birthday and y I'm glad that you use 75 too But my dad passed away at 53 and I'm 56 now But he got cancer and he fought it for about 11 years But I remember at the end him telling me he goes We all get our news and I was like Dad what do you mean Cause he ends up not being able to speak or write or communicate at all but at the end of there he's like We all get our news And I I said What do you mean Well you're gonna all get your news at some point He's like My news has lasted for the past 10 and a half years he goes But in Vietnam I know a collision he's a helicopter guy too Drew those guys got their news it was like two seconds

Andrew Barnes: Yeah. Oh, mm-hmm

Spencer: But then ultimately I have reflected on that so much to where I'm like you get your news when you're born You got your news that you what your birthday is But your death date you really don't know So you should be very intentional I love that word and deliberate about how you use your productive nature So don't take this for granted even it's very easy to take for granted So I know that's kinda deep but I I really like the productive nature of understanding we are working in a scarce world

Andrew Barnes: Yeah and

Spencer: of time Yeah

Andrew Barnes: to just do with social media I kind of tell students that because that's like kind of low-hanging fruit and it's a way I can bully them a little bit get their attention But also even beyond just don't use social media because social media absolutely has great value I, I think it's, it's it's... if it's used well it's a very good thing Um, but I tell students too at some point make a move in your career If you've been sitting in the cubicle farm for 11 years right You get one life

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: if that's really comfortable to you had a a religious leader a bishop that he said that your comfort zone a beautiful place where nothing grows

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: if you've heard that before And if you've been in that cubicle farm for 11 years and you think Well you know I get an 80-year life or I get a 50-year career it's okay for me to do that It's like you don't know that and so get out there if you've always wanted to start that company or if you've always wanted to be a senior leader or if you wanted to Whatever it is go do it Make a path make a plan and go do it One of my favorite parts of uh The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is he says that everything's created twice There's two creations And in construction that has a lot of deep meaning because everything has a s- a blueprint It has a plan set and then you have the actual physical creation So the first creation is a spiritual creation It's where you plan It's where you design right And it doesn't exist r- yet in reality but exists up here in your mind and in that internal experience we have in which we can we can create a design for ourselves We can plan our life We can decide what we're gonna do with our with our next meal but also in 10 years from now what are we gonna be aiming for and what our trajectory is make sure that you don't skip that s- that first creation If you just live in this second creation the material world then You're gonna fall into somebody else's plan or you're gonna have no plan at all and you're just gonna drift And so live intentionally Have those late night conversations with important people in your life Make a plan for yourselves and start moving in that right direction Gracefully transition from one stage to the next You know don't quit your job immediately and go sell popsicles on the beach with dreadlocks and a sleeve tattoo You don't have to do that. If that's part of your plan, then, then go for it, right? one of the things that I tell students is I used to have people at my office who would say, I've got 30 years of construction." And I say, "No, you've got one year of construction 30 times because

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: sitting in the cubicle farm for 30 years doing the exact same thing year after year after year." it's like if you wanted to-- if you want that career, if you just wanna print your donuts, punch in, punch out, and in the year 2073 just get the gold watch and retire, then go for it if that's what you want out of your career. if not, make that plan and say "Okay, I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna get into that entry-level position. I'm gonna spend 18 months there, and by the time I'm 37, I want to be a division president of an upstart, new division for a production home builder." That's what my boss Edwin did. He said by 35 he wanted to do that, and when he hired me, he was 37, and he said, "I almost got there. I've been the division president for one year, so I was one year late." But he said his plan from the beginning was 18 months here, 18 months here, 18 months here, and then division president by this day as his final goal. it's not just about, avoiding social media, right? But avoid anything that just kind of stalls you, that is just like this, just this parachute on your back as you're trying to move forward in your life. And it can be social media, or it can be complacency, or it can be fear, or it can be any of these things that stop you from, having a good experience with this one life.

Aaron: just as we wrap up here, I wanted to ask... Well, I don't know if you have anything else that you'd like to draw out, Spencer.

Spencer: Aaron I think what Drew just explained was this idea of a blueprint and then he called it the material world the second creation is what you're talking about in terms of What leaders do is create and creation is a leadership task you create a a vision And when it's offset from what you want and there's dissonance like this is not what I want what A

Aaron: so the only thing I wanted to draw out this last bit here, Drew, is what's one thing that you would recommend people just start doing tomorrow? Maybe you tell your students something along these lines, but what's one thing that you can start tomorrow that actually moves you in the right direction towards, either being a better leader or living a better life?

Andrew Barnes: Yeah, that's a really big question. One thing, huh?

Aaron: Well, it's meant to be small, right? like you don't have to, go out there and start doing 100 pushups every day. Maybe that is what it is, but...

Spencer: A- Aaron, I'm gonna brush my teeth with more reflection.

Aaron: That's right. Yeah.

Spencer: I'm that time to think about, am I awake? Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah, seven- 70, 72 days of my life just spent there. I'm-- Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to audiobooks or something while I brush my teeth from now on.

Spencer: Yeah.

Andrew Barnes: So there's a book that I'm about halfway through called Flow, and I think this is where I'm gonna get-- I'm gonna answer from. something called the inner experience, Uh, the inner experience is something that you're totally in control of. It's our mind, right? where we create... We have that first creation It's where when I know that, Jessica's gonna come home, and we're gonna plan our evening. If I can just for a few seconds say, "How do I want to approach that conversation?" And it's, it's starting small. I can say like, "Jess, what do you wanna do tonight, girl?" Or I can say, "Jess, how was your day? right, tell me about that." Show her I care, really kind of rehearse that and kind of have that first inner experience where I plan the conversation. And just like we talked about with the first creation with blueprints, just kind of mapping the way you think, the way you want things to go, leaders are always very involved and have a high degree of control over their inner experience. When they're going into a meeting,

Aaron: or

Andrew Barnes: when they're gonna fire somebody, or when they're going to hire somebody or promote somebody, When anything like that happens, I feel like the people who perform the best are the ones that have control, mastered their inner experience, have prepared for the conversation. you wanted to just put that word in your head, it's preparation. So prepare. Control that inner experience. You are the only creator there. are the God of that world, that inner experience. Nobody else is invited.

Aaron: You're

Andrew Barnes: in total control. And so if you can say, "This is the way that conversation should look," right? And I can kind of predict how my wife is gonna react, and I'm going to figure out how I'm going to frame it, or when I have to fire somebody, or when I have to take company in a new direction, whatever it is. Or my workout program or my diet or anything. If you can control that inner experience, make those plans, a very organized mind in which you can tour that world, give yourself a lot of time. That's, that's why I think I'm so offended by TikTok. It's because it's scrambling brains. It's taking that inner experience and turning it into a horrible, chaotic place,

Spencer: Yeah

Andrew Barnes: just flashing lights and images. But if you can really get to the point-- If leaders can get to the point where they can feel very at peace and calm just with their own thoughts as they make plans for the next minute and the next day and the next month and the next year or ten years, fifty years, right? And then just like Aaron was talking about, we didn't have enough time to talk about this, but what gonna find is as you set those plans into motion here in the real world, in the external world, And I know this is very philosophical, and it's a little bit like, you know, goofy to talk about it in this way, but once you, exit that internal world, that internal space, and move your plans out here to the external world and start to apply them, they will change I tell students in my construction program, the first thing I do when they get to my class, I say, "Okay, welcome to class. Here's the syllabus," whatever. "Okay, let's do a five-year plan. I wanna know by the year, What is it? May 8th, uh,2031, where do you wanna be sitting on that day? When you wake up and you drive to work, or when you wake up, where do you wanna be? What does that look like, class?" I hear all these different answers, right? And I say, "Can I tell you how to test whether or not this is a good plan?" After we get done with it, I say, "Okay, that's great. Thanks for sharing, everybody. Now, can I tell you how to test it, whether this is a real good plan or if this is just junk, that you're turning in?" And I say, "If you're turning this in for points, you wasted your time. These, these stupid Canvas points, don't worry about those. Your points are safe. Let's have a good learning experience."

Aaron: and

Andrew Barnes: so I say, "Okay, if you were to recreate this plan in one month, if in 30 days I said, 'Okay, we're gonna do this again,' And then you compare the plan. If your plan is the exact same, it was a bad plan. If your plan is a little bit different, it's good, because if it was a good plan, then you're actually motivated to do it. You'll start following that plan. You'll begin. You'll say, 'This is exactly what I wanna do.' and as move forward, and as this pixelated view of your plan comes into high definition, you're gonna realize, you know what? I don't wanna own a home building company. Instead, I wanna be a professor of construction management, because I learned that I was risk-averse." As you start to follow your plan and create it, uh, as you start to, like, execute it, you're going to discover things you hadn't seen before, and your plan will steadily shift, and move. and with leadership, the one thing in about the 10,000 words that I've spoken is control your inner experience. Learn how to plan and be prepared.